Dance vs Movement (aka "What is dance?")

Following on from Meg's dance vs tech vs movement thread, this arose as a seperate issue which to save her thread being dragged off topic, I thought I'd create a spin-off discussion

So, at what stage does movement become dance?

Examples :-
Ballet is often out of time with the accompanying music, yet it depticts and describes stories and emotions and is definitely dance

Breakdancing (the power move variety) usually only has the music as a background and is often just a display of physical ability - yet it is still dance.

Conversely, take the hip wiggle (only as this was the point that came up in the original thread) on it's own without music... is it dance, or is it just movement?

Dictionary says:
–verb (used without object) 1. to move one's feet or body, or both, rhythmically in a pattern of steps, esp. to the accompaniment of music.
–noun 7. a successive group of rhythmical steps or bodily motions, or both, usually executed to music.

- To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.

So the dictionary suggests that if it's in anyway rhythmical - it's dance. Yet, liquid/waving is fairly irrhythmical being often just constant flow.

Hmmmmm

but breakdance obeys the other law: It has to be on the beat. Like belly dance doesn't tell a story, but it's very much about expressing the music using your body, like visual jazz.

Anyway, most dance incorporates some element of:

being in time to the music
expressing stuff
body control and awareness

I certainly believe and have been told by very good bboys, that good breakdance is on beat. So to say it breaks the normal laws of dance is BS. It's certainly more about expressing aggression, ego and comedy than more other dance forms thou.

Goddammit!

 Written by: Neon_Shaolin


I think you're thinking of 'Desperately Seeking Susan'... (How gay am I?)

I try not to breakdown the way I dance in clubs. It used to be all about having my footages match or double the bpm of the song. Now that I'm too old and can't keep up like I used to (and into 'the poi' etc) I find myself subconscious thinking of doubles staff or body-popping moves... It's quite unnerving

Lets just say 'MAAAAN I LOVE dancing'

Maybe - but I've seen ALOT of breakdancing, animation dance and other "hip hop" styles which completely ignore the rhythm...

But whether or not "good" breakdance is on the beat - that can't mean bad breakdancing isn't dancing (Pointlessly picky arguement)

Yeah but animation tells a story generally.

and if you take away the expressivity and being on beat, What the hell is the music there for?

Jugglers might listen to music while they practise, but it's not dancing, because they're not expressing the music, nor juggling in time to it. (weak analogy, I know.)

But I reckon you could still dance, without being rhythmical and without music...

I feel the difference between "dance" and "body movement" is the soul of what's behind it.

If was to perform a series of "movements", with or without music it would contine to be "body movement" until the soul or emotion or expression of the person moving comes in, then it turns into dance.

Well, that's my two cents and on a side note, wiggling on it's own can be dance - but that all depends on how you wiggle!

[edit] Durbs i agree, although it wouldn't necessarily look very nice!

I think you would have to be expressing something inside of you, otherwise you're just acting like a twat. Or practising.

I mean, if it's got no music, what's the different between it and mime? Or acting?

The beat and the 'Feel' of the music don't always go hand in hand.

The song, the music or even the 'sound' - whether it be the aura or the instrument don't, and shouldn't match the beat in the staccato manner.

Some people might want to match it beat for beat, dance half or double time according to the music or fill the space between beats. Some might even match their movements to the lyrics...

The beat might give you an optional cue to bridge your expression in the dance to the song... You might even want to have your dance style deliberately clash with the song in a juxtaposition or something...

For me, it's definitely more the aura. Plus everyone interprets a song differently and would approach the way they dance in such a manner!

Sigh - with words like "aura" and "soul" I don't think we'll ever get this elusive bugger pinned down

I mentioned mime! Hehe, shoot me if ya can! <runs away>

I know, I was trying to ignore it...

I was about to talk about the difference between 'botting the dance, and botting the mime - but shied away from it

yeah, I don't want to know what this botting is, but it sounds dangerously close to teabagging, but with the otherside... so to speak...

where's andrea when you need her?

this is like other questions with no answer... (what is art?) its all down to your perception, and is gonna vary. some people are gonna have a fairly broad minded opinion on this, and could probably argue the fact that our natural movements in busy underground stations is like some massively complicated dance. others probably have a more narrow minded perpective and to them the only type of dance follows strict rules which they have set out in thier head,

to me dance is when i start moving specifically for the sake of moving. not saying that i dont dance with other purposes in mind but primarily dance is movement for the joy of movement, i.e just unthinkingly reaching for the coffe spoon is not dance but if i twiddle my fingers and wiggle my wrist while i do it, ive been dancing.... hmmm

Speaking of Teabags - where's Steve?

'botting as in Robot (incase you weren't being sarcastic for a change)

oli: I dunnoe we're getting into some pretty deep conceptions of dance there. "The dance of life... laaaaaaa!"

er yeah. I mean, if you think botting is dance when there's no music on, and is no rhythmical and doesn't express anything, next you'll be trying to tell me that living statues are actually dancing...

let's just watch this and think: "What utter pretentious non-sense! Good quotes thou."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ALtIwy77RU

and be happy.

meg.. thats what i mean... dance is an art and as such resists all attempts to define it.. i mean people have been trying to define art for ages, theres allways someone whos making something that makes people go... 'er hang on, wait a minute this isnt art..' or ' err, i didnt know this was art, but it must be because this guy calls himself an artist and he says it is and its in an art gallery...' dance is like that i reckon...

Living statues aren't dancers - they're just 's

durbs: amen to that!

oli: yeah there is stuff that's hard to tell if it's dance or not, but I think you can define it at least a bit, I mean typing isn't a dance, but you could make it into a dance, like fingerskillz! or whatever that stuff is called.

I mean you could say most of conversation is a 'game'. but you'd have to give a very tight technical definition of 'games' before you'd be taken seriously.

Plus I'd like to think it's made me think to have this discussion.

i can see situations where a living statue could be considered a dancer... not such a stupid idea. i mean, most dance is a bit boring.. seen it all before etc. but you see some dancers not moving at all... and thats got to make you think a bit.. probably gonna start having a debate like this in your head... not saying i think living statues are dancers, but some day someone might or they allready have.. i dunno???

edit : meg - you can define it, but your definitions probably gonna be different from everyone elses.. so not such a useful defintion.

Nah...they might be artistes (but they're not really ) - but I don't think they can be classed as dancers - I think "dance" implies some form of movement, rhythmic or otherwise.

okay... like music implie sound, but then what did john cage do?

So... you're taking a technically undefined term, when you all nonetheless "know" what it means, and attempting to find some form of explanation that fits your preconceptions.

That's really silly and pointless. i like it!

See this other illuminating example of a similar thread:
What does "Technical" mean?

What is Music?

What is Art?

What is wrong with Meg?

More questions that have subjective answers.

I don't think you can draw a line and say "He's not dancing but if he moves his right toe one inch more than he is."

What is love? Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. No more.

[Hee hee, now I got that song stuck in your head! ]

I loved that technical thread. And not in a platonic way.

which might be what's wrong with me.

Speaking as a contemporary dancer. (Didn't think I'd ever get to start a sentance like that.)
I would have to say what I did in my dance classes and movement classes were pretty much interchangable, if not the same. So I don't see any difference between them.

dance is where you move your body and manipulate your pois actions. movement is where ~the poi~ moves you and manipulates your bodies actions.
maybe I'm just biased