#694756 - 25/01/06 09:01 AM
"Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 28/08/02
Loc: sheffield
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"Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
As there's been a good few threads on the issues of alternative vs. conventional medicine, I thought I'd post this.
It's on tonight at 9.00 pm on BBC2.
I've no idea if it's going to be any good, but thought I'd mention it.
_________________________
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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#694757 - 25/01/06 11:25 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: onewheeldave]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Fascinating documentary.
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#694758 - 25/01/06 06:14 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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coming to a country near you
Registered: 09/03/04
Loc: home of the tiney toothy bear
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did it win?
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"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
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#694759 - 25/01/06 06:22 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Mr Majestik]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
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I don't believe in "alternative medicine." I believe in evidence-based medicine combined with open-mindedness. Some people call it "complimentary medicine."
Think ginger is a good treatment for nausea? Do a double-blind placebo-controlled study. In fact, it's been done and ginger is superior to several anti-nausea drugs. So is ginger "alternative?" And this is why I carry ginger capsules to work: because the pharmacy doesn't have it, but I do.
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#694760 - 25/01/06 09:14 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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no excuses. no apologies.
Registered: 04/01/05
Loc: aotearoa
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 doc
inserting a filiform needle inbetween the palmaris longus and flexor carpi radialis tendons, 2 inches proximal to the transverse wrist crease is also a good treatment for nausea (i carry needles around with me too) (gotta be careful of that medial nerve; using ones thumb to separate the tendons also helps to push the nerve radially, thus out of harms way).
i think western medicine is a great compliment to traditional medicine, too. i wouldnt say its alternative 
it all depends on which shore you stand on when you relate various healing modalities.
they are all beneficial in some ways. its like when you have a meal. do you only have peas? or do you have lots of different things on your plate? we all need different things at different times.
its extremely hard to do a double blind randomized control trial for acupuncture, however, as you cannot placebo needle someone. putting a needle in a different location will create a different effect on the body. even pressing down in simulation of a needle insertion will influence the body's qi (chi/energy). but then, i would think that more than 7000 years of treating people for pathologies that range from musculoskeletal conditions to hypertension to the common cold could be considered evidence enough to warrant its inclusion within our biomedical paradigm. after all, if it didnt work, they wouldn't have used it all these years, right?
_________________________
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
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#694762 - 26/01/06 01:26 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Registered: 26/05/04
Loc: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
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I was going to say that for thousands of years people believed that the Earth is flat and the Sun orbits it. Apparently some people still do...
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Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.
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#694764 - 26/01/06 04:18 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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was the research in this program published anywhere?
surely if a resercher claims that they have produced truly conclusive evidence that acupuncture does not work, there would have been a little more media coverage than just a fairly low-profile documentary...?
jeff, for the benefit of those that did/could not see the programme what is the placebo for an acupuncture needle exactly?
although, on the topic of chi, did anyone watch derren brown's 'the heist' recently?
he presented a very interesting interpretation of a classic exhibition of chi energy that has made me think very hard about it all...
cole. x
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#694765 - 26/01/06 04:38 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: coleman]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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There were two examples of placebo acupunture in the program. One consisted of telescopic needles and the other was simply jabbing people then selotaping the needles down. Both examples had to be done on people without experience with acupuncture as it was possible for someone who had had it before to tell the difference. It's not a perfect method but it gives a lot more validity to the trials.
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#694766 - 26/01/06 05:00 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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cheers jeff.
as far as i can tell though, seeing as shen shui already stated that "even pressing down in simulation of a needle insertion will influence the body", these trials are not very valid at all since the placebos they used for needles could easily affect the outcome of the experiment.
this invalidity is compounded if say accupuncture relies heavily on something resembling 'placebo effect'.
what is placebo effect after all?
and why can scientists not define how it is caused or how they could possibly increase or decrease it?
maybe what scientists should be looking at is something like "is accupuncture a way of increasing the success of a placebo effect?".
of course, one could argue that the "you cannot touch the body without affecting its health" statement is simply too convenient since it pretty much prevents accupuncture ever being tested in a scientific environment and is thus essentially a ploy to keep accupuncture alive and kicking...
cole. x
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#694767 - 26/01/06 06:30 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: coleman]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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There seems to be some confusion on the topic of placebos. Here's the wikipedia article (please note it needs a lot of work done). Research is still ongoing in the field.
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#694771 - 26/01/06 10:47 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Domino]
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 28/08/02
Loc: sheffield
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It seemed that acupuncture came out pretty well- the presenter was obviously sceptical, medically knowledgable and went into the difficulties of eliminating placebo effects- by the end she seemed fairly convinced that some of the studies did show an effect over and above placebo for acupuncture.
(Along the way she visited a university that specialised in looking at the validity of studies claiming to show effects for alternative medicine- and, most such studies they looked at were found to contain flaws in methodology etc).
The most convincing attempt to address the placebo effect was a needle which was 'tapped in' in exactly the same way as a normal acupuncture needle is (and felt exactly the same), but which acted like those fake daggers when the second push-in occurs (ie the needle looked like it was going in, but actually just dissapeared into the handle).
Obviously, there are always going to be issues with eliminating the placebo effect with accupuncture, as it basically involves sticking in needles to a fair depth- simulating that is problematic.
However, it's worth reflecting that the same issue undoubtebly arises with studies of conventional medicine. For example, for a study showing the efficacy of conventional invasive treatments for cancer- is it going to be straightforward (or possible) to find a control group of cancer victims who won't recieve conventional treatments and yet who are, in every other way, living identical lives to the ones who are?
I would imagine that no study is ever 100% perfect- but researchers have to find ways to minimise the effects of imperfections; and this seemed to be what they were doing with the fake acupunture needles.
Personally, one study I'd like to see would be to have two groups, give one conventional accupuncture treatment and, for the second group, give them accupuncture, but use random insertion points (ie stick needles in them, but ignore the conventional accupuncture maps of appropriate insertion points).
_________________________
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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#694773 - 26/01/06 12:53 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Domino]
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I make my own people.
Registered: 02/10/05
Loc: Nashville, Tennessee
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Written by: Domino
Written by: jeff(fake)
People have known since thousands of years before the birth of Christ that the Earth was round.
I know the Greeks did but not evryone worked it out. Besides, how many of the uneducated ancient Greeks would have believed it? Not the famed mathatitions but Stellios Bloggos off the streets? If you only have a limited knowledge of the world (particularly that part of it that falls beyond the horizon) it goes against the evidence of your own eyes.
And did you know that most mainstream media still believe the sun goes around the earth? I just looked at the weather on Yahoo! and they had a time for "sunrise" and "sunset." Someone needs to explain to them that the sun doesn't "rise" and "set," this is just an illusion created by the rotation of the earth.
On topic: I heard the other day that the old custom of "bloodletting" actually does have a beneficial effect for certain diseases. I'm not going to start using leeches on myself, but it makes me wonder whether we really understand "how" modern medicine works. I know personally that I just do things that seem to work (like asprin) without having a really good explanation for why.
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#694774 - 26/01/06 01:18 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: shen shui]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
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Written by: shen shui
its extremely hard to do a double blind randomized control trial for acupuncture, however, as you cannot placebo needle someone. putting a needle in a different location will create a different effect on the body. even pressing down in simulation of a needle insertion will influence the body's qi (chi/energy). but then, i would think that more than 7000 years of treating people for pathologies that range from musculoskeletal conditions to hypertension to the common cold could be considered evidence enough to warrant its inclusion within our biomedical paradigm. after all, if it didnt work, they wouldn't have used it all these years, right?
Some controlled studies have been done on accupuncture. One was done for cocaine withdrawal and showed no benefit. The placebo was to insert the needles into points that have no significance in accupuncture.
Other studies have shown benefit, but I'm not familiar with the literature in this field to feel confident commenting further.
I think it's important to think about a few things: first, there is no one single correct system. In China, modern medicine uses a mixture of modern and traditional modalities. Germany is like this, too.
Ancient medicine could do a lot of things, and often modern medicine is simply a refinement of traditional medicine. Digoxin, for example, is a drug used for patients with congestive heart failure. It came from an ancient home remedy for dropsy (edema) long ago that included, among many other things, foxglove (Digitalis spp.). It turns that digitoxin, or digoxin, is the active ingredient in the home remedy and it comes from foxglove. Similarly, penicillin is a natural product, and aspirin is a derivative of a natural product from the bark of a certain kind of willow tree, but aspirin is less harsh on the stomach than pure salycilic acid, which is its natural precursor.
There are many things, though, that traditional medicine could never address. Before the advent (and subsequent abuse) of penicillin, there was no cure for bacterial diseases. The treatment for a serious bacterial infection in a limb was amputation. We practically never do that today. (We do do it, but only in patients with poor blood supply to the limb who aren't responding to antibiotics, such as longstanding, poorly-controlled diabetics). Today, such an infection is easily cured with antibiotics.
Insulin-dependent diabetes (Juvenile, or type-1) used to be uniformly fatal within months of onset of symptoms, if not within days. The development of first porcine (pig) insulin and then recombinant human insulin (which has less risk of developing antibodies against insulin) has turned this once-devastating disease into a life-long chronic disease.
30 years ago, the diagnosis of leukemia was "six months to a year." Today children under ten diagnosed with acute lymphocytic leukemia have a better than 90% survival rate.
Modern medicine has done truly amazing things and I'm privileged to be able to practice it.
In handling complimentary and traditional medicine, it's important to remember that modern medicine has gone leaps and bounds in the last 50 years over traditional healing and that it can do fantastic things. Many of us would never have made it past the age of 10 100 years ago. We would have died of scarlet fever or measles or myriad other childhood diseases that either no longer really exist in the modern world or that are easily treated today. There are those who have an agenda to subvert modern medicine to the point that they even believe that vaccines don't work, when any amount of evidence shows clearly that they have saved billions of lives.
Which brings me to my last point: just because it's complimentary or natural doesn't make it safe. Go back to digoxin, our natural product from the foxglove plant. It's ABSURDLY toxic in doses that are roughly twice the therapeutic dose. When compared to, say, ibuprofen, an artificial product, digoxin is a frank poison. Other natural products, such as fish oil or ginger are very safe. But just because it's natural doesn't make it safe. Deadly nightshade is natural. In evaluating any natural therapy it's important to understand that they ALL have risks, side-effects, and potential toxicities. Accupuncture can lead to infection if done improperly, ginger can cause GI upset, fish oil can cause GI upset and diarrhea. It may also make patients with bipolar disorder prone to manial.
I believe that taking any sort of EFFECTIVE healing art and pigeon-holing it as "alternative" doesn't do it justice.
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#694775 - 26/01/06 02:17 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Stream Entrant
Registered: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
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Alternative medicine. I hope that means alternative to the crap systems in most countries If it’s the other alternative medicine, the I know someone who plans to build a “spiritual hospital”. I think there is room for both, and Western medicine is fantastic in come areas, but sadly lacking in most. Like I don’t see a holistic approach. Umm, there is room for improvement. Ginger rocks. Perhaps as Lightning suggests "complimentary medicine” is the way to go.
_________________________
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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#694776 - 26/01/06 09:03 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Stone]
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no excuses. no apologies.
Registered: 04/01/05
Loc: aotearoa
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cant do no double blind studies with acupuncutre, unless you get people that dont know anything about it to insert the needles, which im sure you'll all agree is rather silly. if you tell an acupuncturist to needle certain points, they'll be able to deduce the most probable pathology based on the selected points.
one thing that bugs me totally about these researches is their morality. how nice is it to no ttell someone that the treatment they are getting is false and they are unsuspecting guinea pigs for the betterment of humankind? rough.
i think the best way of seeing somethings efficacy as a treatment modality is to relate using it to not using it, not pretending to not use it... but then, maybe im toooo moral.
i think its pathetic how some people will take the word of a documetary over actually studying literature for themselves as to whether certain things work or not work. personally, i have had colds, digestive problems, headaches and muscular strains cured by acupuncture (yes, cured). i have also helped people with these problems, and more. maybe before people start dissing things they should actually find out both sides of the story.
i just dont like people dissing other people. terrorism sucks.
_________________________
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
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#694777 - 26/01/06 09:25 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: Patriarch917]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Alright, folks are getting silly again... Written by: Patriarch917
On topic: I heard the other day that the old custom of "bloodletting" actually does have a beneficial effect for certain diseases. I'm not going to start using leeches on myself, but it makes me wonder whether we really understand "how" modern medicine works. I know personally that I just do things that seem to work (like asprin) without having a really good explanation for why.
Medincal Leeches are pretty well understood. They drain the blood out of places where the veins have become inefective to prevent the stale blood clotting. Asprin too is very well understood, but it wasn't always and I have a point to make on the topic. When aspirin was first synthesised (as a replacement to the natural salicylic acid which caused unpleasant stomache aches) it wasn't well understood. But it is able to preform in randomised double blind tests, thus establishing its efficacy. If something doesn't work in a randomised double blind test then that's very good evidence it doesn't work. That's why advocated of bogus medicines rip into the double blind system so much.
Written by: shen shou
one thing that bugs me totally about these researches is their morality. how nice is it to no ttell someone that the treatment they are getting is false and they are unsuspecting guinea pigs for the betterment of humankind? rough.
They volenteered for the trial.
Written by: doc lightning
I believe that taking any sort of EFFECTIVE healing art and pigeon-holing it as "alternative" doesn't do it justice.
You would all do well to listen to lightning on this. I would not call ginger or honey or willow bark alternative. There is simply that which works (which we now call modern medicine) and that which doesn't (now call alternative).
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#694778 - 26/01/06 10:18 PM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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veteran
Registered: 29/07/05
Loc: lost
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jeff( fake) , it is incredible and somewhat ridiculous how overly simplistically you apply your definition.
Lots of modern medicine does not work, or works to a degree, or includes a nasty range of side effects... there is a whole range of effects/results within it. There are also a full range of practitioners; skilled to incompetant, yet all of them certified by the medical proffession and our government to practice.
Likewise we see the same range of difficulties within so called alternative medicine. Some works, some does not, some results vary dependant on any number of factors, some we comprehend and some we dont. Some practitioners are skilled and knowledgable, experienced, some are not. There is no black and white!
I agree with Doc, perhaps complementary medicine is a better term to use.If you think wholistically, maintaining ones health can include both mainstream and complementary approaches. For example, mainstream medicine largely overlooks the application of preventative medicine, and complementary medicines can frequently fill this gap. They are not mutually exclusive !
~A
_________________________
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
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#694780 - 27/01/06 01:32 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: jeff(fake)]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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jeff - the world of pharma is not nearly as polarised as you would like to make out and (i apologise if this is an inappropriate comment but) your statement about 'civic duty' is pompous, overinflated rhetoric.
there are many, many examples of drugs that have made it past clinical trial to then be proved ineffective or unsafe.
if you are unaware of them, i'm afraid it is not at all immoral if we choose to not take the time to educate you.
Written by: jeff
There is simply that which works (which we now call modern medicine) and that which doesn't (now call alternative).
give us one example of a drug that falls into your 'modern medicine' category that has a 0% failure rate.
can't find one?
okay then, instead give us an example of an 'alternative' which has a 100% failure rate.
still having trouble?
so where exactly is the line drawn?
should we rely entirely on evidence from clinical trials - are they that infalliable?
take the alzeheimers drug debate going on in the uk right now:
the drugs have been used on early and late stage patients since they were approved, yet they are now claimed to only work on mid-stage sufferers, despite patients that seem to prove otherwise - do these treatments now go into your 'alternative' box?
do you still stand by the statement "modern medicine is defined by that which works"...?
vaccinations - remember the mmr debacle?
the science of nutrition - you assume this developed in complete isolation and took nothing from the ayurvedic diet and the like?
cardiovascular excercise - come on, hardly modern medicine now is it? what about non-cardio exercise, like yoga - obviously no good?
brushing teeth - how about mouthwash? good or bad/modern or alternative?
the purification of water - what about the additives introduced like flouride? good for your teeth but bad for your health?
i'm afraid you don't 'own' anyone sir.
cole. x
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#694781 - 27/01/06 01:58 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: coleman]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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If there is a drug which is ineffective then it should be removed from the system immediately. It is completely immoral to withhold that kind of information. If there is some treatment which is currently accepted but you can prove it is no better than placebo or dangerous then you should immediately announce it to the world as has happened in the past as with Thalidomide.
Sometimes the line isn't clear, that's where research is essential. Sometimes somethings are approved mistakenly. Again research is essentail to establish which. There is a clear distinction between what I define as medicine (stuff which works) and drugs which are currently approved. Some medicine hasn't been discoved yet and ther eare ineffective treatments still in circulation. That's why all right thinking people in the business are trying to find and declare which those are.
The mmr debate was resolved long ago, they are completely safe. pm doc lightning if you want more information. It's utterly discraceful that you would repeat outright lies like those.
The origins of nutrition are irrelevent to the discussion. Just because some Indians stumbled upon a healthy diet doesn't render healthy eating an 'alternative medicine'. Yoga is in no way alternative for the same reasons. Just because it came from the east doesn't mean it's magical.
Fluridation of water and mouth wash are examples of those gray areas. Disputed isn't the same as alternative. If they were proven to be completely ineffective then they would be alternative.
pwnage stands
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#694782 - 27/01/06 02:09 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: coleman]
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 28/08/02
Loc: sheffield
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On the question of the impossibility of performing quality double-blind research with acupuncture.
Personally, I believe that it probably is possible and that the study shown on the documentary was one such attempt. I believe that it is certainly possible to create such a study for acupunture that is as valid as many of the studies that have been used to establish conventional medicines.
(as I've pointed out on most of these conventional vs, alternative threads- a critisism of alternative medicines is only really valid if the same critisism can't be applied to conventional medicines).
But, let's just assume that there is a real problem with conducting studies on acupuncture- that being the case we could conclude that acupuncture can't be scientifically grounded; but that does not mean that acupuncture doesn't work.
The fact that acupuncture can't be scientifically validated,also means that it can't be scientifically invalidated either.
_________________________
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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#694783 - 27/01/06 02:17 AM
Re: "Alternative medicine" UK documentary 24 jan
[Re: onewheeldave]
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Scientist of Fortune
Registered: 15/04/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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I would be inclined to disagree. I think it may be possible to run a perfect double-blind trial on acupuncture but that the technology is still some way away. I'm still skeptical about the whole thing but the CAT scan evidence need to be examaned very thoroughly. I think we may soon be able to answer the key question over it's effiacacy and then acept the rational aspects of it with open arms into medicine or be able to finaly dismiss it as quackery.
_________________________
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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. But it appeared that you were intimating that there was some kind of validity to the conjecture that mmr causes autism. Since that has been thourghally and conclusively disproven (but still supported by some people, as things like this tend to be) then suggesting it is a falsehood. If I misunderstood you're post then I retract the remark, otherwise it remains.
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