Dance lessons for spinners

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#672029 - 27/12/05 06:28 AM dance lessons for spinners *****
Aliosha Offline
member

Registered: 31/07/03
Loc: Berlin, somewhere
I serached a bit in the forum, and I could not find anything about this.

I began spinning (first poi, the staff and doubles) almost 4 years ago. I never danced before, I was the "I don't dance, I don't like dancing, I cannot dance" kind of guy. I used to juggle, but by then I was already bored by balls and clubs (I still do some contact, though); no dancing there, either.
The first months of learning were just about new tricks, learning as a juggler. After a while I realized I liked the most people that did not do A LOT of things, but that were smooth, that had style.
And began to work on that: no new moves for maybe 6 or 8 months. Just becoming smooth (I now know I was working on planes and routines; I did not, then)

And then it hit me: I was dancing.
I really was, and I loved it, and I was not bad at it.
I got asked were I learnt, and so on.
And wanted to get better.

I have been working mostly on THAT, in the last years. And now I am looking for more: I'd like to study a bit of dancing: to know where to put my legs, to find a different way of being smooth.
Now: I did some capoeira, and now I am practicing contact improvisation. I love them, but I am not sure they are what I need.
The question is: is there anyone else that began taking dance lessons to improve the spinning-firedancing? What worked better?
I know there are quite many spinners that got dance lessons in previous incarnations: any ideas? hints? What should a spinner look for?

(If I manage to learn the split, like I am AGAIN trying to, I WILL try ballet lessons, for a while; or at least modern dance)
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--- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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#672030 - 27/12/05 06:53 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
MikeIcon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 27/03/03
Loc: Philadelphia, PA - USA
I have thought about taking dancing for this purpose but I concluded that I can learn better on my own and doing so will give me more style in the end.
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#672031 - 27/12/05 07:00 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: MikeIcon]
Aliosha Offline
member

Registered: 31/07/03
Loc: Berlin, somewhere
Weeeell, it's not a either one or the other.
I still plan to study on my own...
_________________________
--- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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#672032 - 27/12/05 08:35 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
KaelGotRice Offline
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode

Registered: 21/07/03
Loc: Angel's Landing, USA
The method I learned by was watching spinners in real life and videos who were smooth and "dance-y".

This included nick "dervishly yers", yuta, fluffy naplam fairy, andy(poibox), and cass from HoP, along with many others (too many to mention).

While I couldn't exactly copy their style and moves exactly, I incorporated things about their spinning/movements that I liked and threw it together to achieve what I hope is my own style.

This was because I haven't found anyone close by since I was a "beginner" that could give me lessons in smooth poi dancing.

good luck
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#672033 - 27/12/05 08:46 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: KaelGotRice]
Aliosha Offline
member

Registered: 31/07/03
Loc: Berlin, somewhere
Written by: KaelGotRice


The method I learned by was watching spinners in real life and videos who were smooth and "dance-y".




Yep, ok, that was what I used to do, steal blatantly, ahem, take inspiration from othrs.
The point, now, is that I want to put together *real* dancing (not my dancey-smoothy style) AND spinning.
I mean: next time someone asks me "perchance, are you a professional dancer" I want to answer "yes, thank you for asking" and not mumbling something about being self taught etc etc.

So: my problem is not "how to become smooth" but "what kind of dance classes blend well with poi/staff spinning".
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--- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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#672034 - 27/12/05 08:58 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
fluffy napalm fairy Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 12/12/01
Loc: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
I started dance lessons. I wanted to do exactly what you describe. I began an Introduction to Contemporary Dance course and found it (for a range of reasons including an appalingly unprofessional teacher) unsuitable and unpleasant.

Unfortunately that was a huge kick in the teeth for someone with as little 'public' confidence as me (ie leearning in a group) and I have struggled to find another way into learning a skill i really think I need.

So - good luck and let me know how it goes! I would love to learn to dance a little but think I will have to search a little longer and build up a bit more courage til I find the right place/time/people to help me.
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#672035 - 27/12/05 09:14 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: fluffy napalm fairy]
Aliosha Offline
member

Registered: 31/07/03
Loc: Berlin, somewhere
Written by:

Unfortunately that was a huge kick in the teeth for someone with as little 'public' confidence as me (ie leearning in a group) and I have struggled to find another way into learning a skill i really think I need.



That was *exactly* my experience with acting; I am not good at learning in groups, at least in the beginning. That what I loved of juggling: you can just disappear in your basement, and come back 6 months later as an advanced beginner (or whatever) and go on from there.

Even if I am better now, recently I had a similar, so good experience with a silk tissue teacher; she is from a Circus, so her idea of putting someone at easy is shouting in front of everyone "you are an idiot, DON'T put that leg there!".
AND she is a friend, and I am her personal masseus
  • (but not her student anymore).

    I'll let you know. Up to now, Contact Improvisation is great fun (one of the reason I am moving to Berlin, actually), but totally useless with poi. Maybe with contact staff (but I am useless with contact staff, then).
    Things on my list are:
    -modern dance
    -african dance
    -bellly dance (ok, the male version, whatever it's called)
    -tai chi chuan.

    By the time I'll be 70, I'll be G R E A T...


  • spelling?
  • _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672036 - 27/12/05 09:15 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    anever Offline
    Member

    Registered: 23/12/05
    i would suggest bellydancing. i'm very new to poi but quite old to bellydancing (9 years) and many of the moves i've learned seem to play into different weight-shifts and arm movements that i've already learned through bellydancing. also you can be very sassy about getting your hips out of the way. most towns have at least one good teacher, even if you have to dig a little to find one. good luck, have fun.

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    #672037 - 27/12/05 09:55 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: fluffy napalm fairy]
    Dunc Offline
    playing the days away

    Registered: 19/08/03
    Loc: The Middle lands
    I think Fluffy does Capoira and yoga, that right Fluff? Or has done at least. And I think it reflects in her spinning. Not so much lending their styles to it but making her more flexible and acheiving good posture and stance throughout.
    I considered starting yoga for the same reason, helping my muscles learn new positions and strengths and benefiting my spinning overall but not directly affecting style.

    I'd also like to get soe tips off a ballet school, one has opened (or rather relocated) near me and I'm very tempted to go and see if they'll let me spin infront of their mirrors and maybe give me tips on posture and stance while I'm there but give them far less money than a lesson seeing as I won't really be learning their stuff or need dedicated attention. When I have enough spare cash I'll go ask
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    #672038 - 27/12/05 10:29 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Dunc]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    Written by: Dunc


    I think Fluffy does Capoira and yoga, that right Fluff? Or has done at least. And I think it reflects in her spinning. Not so much lending their styles to it but making her more flexible and acheiving good posture and stance throughout.




    Actually, now that I come to think about it, a friend of mine that did a lot of ballet and some bellydance, when watching a video of Fluffy, said "it shows that she studied dance".
    So: the style was there.
    (And she told me "it shows that you did *not* study dance", grrr)

    Written by:

    I considered starting yoga for the same reason, helping my muscles learn new positions and strengths and benefiting my spinning overall but not directly affecting style.




    I am thinking about Tai Chi for the same reason; and at least it's dynamic (I already have stretching and meditation for the static part)

    Written by: anver

    i would suggest bellydancing.




    I'll check it out.
    I am just always a bit doubtful: is there any *male* studying bellydance? I mean, it's not that I mind studying in a all woman course (at all), but I am not sure I am supposed to be able to study it or not...
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672039 - 27/12/05 10:59 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    jeffhigh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 15/10/05
    Loc: Caves Beach, NSW
    Hey Aliosha,
    I am a fellow massage therapist and was always dance challenged untill the last 12 months.
    Then I started learning Kahuna Massage (aka Hawaiian temple style Lomi Lomi) and that provided a huge step forward with movement You use dance movements as you massage and move around the table.
    So here am learning poi and wanting so much to move along with it as I perfect the moves.

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    #672040 - 27/12/05 11:42 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: jeffhigh]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    Written by: jeffhigh


    Then I started learning Kahuna Massage (aka Hawaiian temple style Lomi Lomi) and that provided a



    That sounds what happened to me with Thai massage.
    But, then, when I learned it (one year ago), I already could dance. So, actually, I put the dance INTO the massage.
    (Or, lt's call it all meditation; or dance; or X)

    I want to learn Lomi Lomi too, before or later. Next on the list is Ayurvedic massage, though.
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672041 - 27/12/05 12:20 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    [Nx?] Offline
    Carpal \'Tunnel

    Registered: 05/11/01
    Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
    male belly dancers who domm poi ... humm... i think i remeber one really skinny really white guy from texas...

    he was pretty hot.

    me, I can boogie already, i wanna study funk sweat and stuff, but all dancing boils down to gettin jiggy with it and having a good time.

    dancing is much harder and has more possibilities than poi, so i recon dance first, poi second...

    moden dance and jazz, errm, no i dont think its very acessible, tho i could easily be proved wrong, i dont think id like to watch it...

    there have been many dance companies who use flags and stuff in dance, or look at hero and forrest of the flyingdaggers for more circle-movment-dance ideas.

    when you start getting to the bodily level, things get so much harder to discuss in words.

    T
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    #672042 - 27/12/05 12:26 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    mcp Offline
    Flying Water Muppet

    Registered: 20/05/03
    Loc: Edin-borrow.
    Written by: Aliosha


    I am just always a bit doubtful: is there any *male* studying bellydance? I mean, it's not that I mind studying in a all woman course (at all), but I am not sure I am supposed to be able to study it or not...




    Where is arashi when you need him?

    Yes, men can study belly dance too. Sometimes the teachers aren't cool with it thou.

    I'm still not sure whether it's cool to be doing a style of dance and then just pinning poi on top of that. Poi seems to indicate that it wants it's own form of movement. I mean like the floor work in gymnastics set to music, they have all these dance elements and then randomly they pop off to the corners, run and do some tumbling. It's just like the dance is bolted on. I'm still not sure if you can get rid of that bolted on feeling with poi and any established dance form.

    But that's just something I'm not sure about.

    If I were me, I would want to gain a heightened sense of body and control over it, so I could dance better while spinning, and try and figure out what dance movements I would want to integrate into my spinning, and what ones make sense.

    And how would I gain a better body sense and better control? Well I would probably study dance, and tai chi.

    I would choose one that appeals to you, that has set steps / movements, unlike contact improvisation, (to some extent) so as to learn about your body.
    _________________________
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    "the still legendary" - Kaskade

    I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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    #672043 - 27/12/05 12:29 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: [Nx?]]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    Written by: [Nx?

    ]
    there have been many dance companies who use flags and stuff in dance, or look at hero and forrest of the flyingdaggers for more circle-movment-dance ideas.




    Yep, I have been looking at those kind of martial arts movies.
    I just have a problem: I don't seem to manage to take off!
    (And I gave up on aerials and sommersault, my joints just BEGGED me to stop)

    Written by:


    when you start getting to the bodily level, things get so much harder to discuss in words.

    T




    I totally grok.
    The body is a whole, while language is linear (sounds like speaking about Zen).
    Still: I was checking about Dance Technology, and it looks like there are techologies to record the dance movements in a way that can be, then, read by humans. Like a kind of notation for music.
    I would not mind doing my PhD on something like that (I mean, come on, dance, AND poi, AND computers; if I can put also some massage and raving and writing in the mix, I gonne be as happy as happy one can be!)
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672044 - 27/12/05 01:02 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: mcp]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    Written by: mcp


    Yes, men can study belly dance too. Sometimes the teachers aren't cool with it thou.




    Ouch.
    Still: I am quite fashinated, so I'll try.

    Written by:


    I'm still not sure whether it's cool to be doing a style of dance and then just pinning poi on top of that. Poi seems to indicate that it wants it's own form of movement. I mean like the floor work in gymnastics set to music, they have all these dance elements and then randomly they pop off to the corners, run and do some tumbling. It's just like the dance is bolted on. I'm still not sure if you can get rid of that bolted on feeling with poi and any established dance form.




    Oh, well, my point is that I have already the poi, the spinning. Well, "having" is not the best word, but, still. Usually, spinning gets in the way when I learn other movements (like capoeira does), since I know them better. At most, I guess I could just get into a month long crisis, like when I learned isolation and all my stile got scrambled until I managed to get the feeling of it.
    Written by:

    If I were me, I would want to gain a heightened sense of body and control over it, so I could dance better while spinning, and try and figure out what dance movements I would want to integrate into my spinning, and what ones make sense.



    That's the point

    Written by:

    And how would I gain a better body sense and better control? Well I would probably study dance, and tai chi.




    See?

    Written by:


    I would choose one that appeals to you, that has set steps / movements, unlike contact improvisation, (to some extent) so as to learn about your body.



    Yep, even if contact IS fun.
    I guess I'll experiment a bit; modern or afro, probably. AND bellydance.
    (ok, going back to stretching, sounds like I'l need it)
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672045 - 27/12/05 01:07 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    mcp Offline
    Flying Water Muppet

    Registered: 20/05/03
    Loc: Edin-borrow.
    I still think video cameras are the best way to capture choreography...

    Yeah yeah yeah, look at the smiley. Sometimes I have to talk to get my thoughts to work.

    I good chunk of everything maybe, that'll teach you some amazing control...
    _________________________
    "the now legendary" - Kaskade
    "the still legendary" - Kaskade

    I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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    #672046 - 27/12/05 01:50 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: mcp]
    Happy Birthday arashi Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 21/03/02
    Loc: austin,tx

    quote; mcp
    "I'm still not sure whether it's cool to be doing a style of dance and then just pinning poi on top of that. Poi seems to indicate that it wants it's own form of movement. I mean like the floor work in gymnastics set to music, they have all these dance elements and then randomly they pop off to the corners, run and do some tumbling. It's just like the dance is bolted on. I'm still not sure if you can get rid of that bolted on feeling with poi and any established dance form.

    But that's just something I'm not sure about."

    obviously i suck. is that what you're trying to say?

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    #672047 - 27/12/05 01:57 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: arashi]
    Happy Birthday arashi Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 21/03/02
    Loc: austin,tx
    and this thread encapsulates the work of my life, my PhD as it were. for anyone who cares i am still working on it, but all my energy has gone into live workshops and not the dvd. i keep learning so much about dance and yoga it's hard to bring myself to get anything filmed without wanting to put more on the film a week later. with a class i can just do it!
    however i am working on this stuff every day, i promise.
    plus i'm a bit flakey...
    sounds like pele is working on this too.
    with both of us being belly dancers, albeit different styles, i can't wait to see how they compare!!

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    #672048 - 27/12/05 01:58 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: arashi]
    mcp Offline
    Flying Water Muppet

    Registered: 20/05/03
    Loc: Edin-borrow.
    yes...?

    But I thought you blew? Or like swallowed? Where has my innuendo gone?

    Maybe it's fine and I just don't like it cos I be a silly purist.

    Maybe I'm not sure.

    Maybe you'll have to come back over here and re-educate me, and this time I'll have a video camera...

    Maybe I really liked your style, but I knew I couldn't copy it, cos belly dancing is soooooo not my style.

    Maybe any style of dancing I did like couldn't / wouldn't go with spinning.

    Maybe the styles I don't like go well with spinning. And maybe that pisses me off... Who can tell really?
    _________________________
    "the now legendary" - Kaskade
    "the still legendary" - Kaskade

    I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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    #672049 - 27/12/05 02:01 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: mcp]
    Happy Birthday arashi Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 21/03/02
    Loc: austin,tx
    "Maybe I really liked your style, but I knew I couldn't copy it, cos belly dancing is soooooo not my style. "

    LOL
    *pictures meg bellydancing*

    MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!!

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    #672050 - 27/12/05 02:05 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: arashi]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    Bellydancing is on the winning side, right now.

    Any other contender?
    Modern? Classic? Ballet? Country dances? Walzer? Polka? Samba?
    (No, I refuse even to think about salsa y merengue. Don't ask why: I just don't)


    Edited by Aliosha (27/12/05 02:07 PM)
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672051 - 27/12/05 02:08 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    mcp Offline
    Flying Water Muppet

    Registered: 20/05/03
    Loc: Edin-borrow.
    arashi: <slap>

    Hula! Tap.... Funk?

    Japanese, chinese dance styles? I don't know any...

    Bollywood?
    _________________________
    "the now legendary" - Kaskade
    "the still legendary" - Kaskade

    I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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    #672052 - 27/12/05 02:14 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: mcp]
    Happy Birthday arashi Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 21/03/02
    Loc: austin,tx
    various styles of indian, tap, belly, flamenco, samba,a little capoeira, kung fu, tai chi, kabuki, polynesian, thai, balinesian, the list goes on i'm sure, these are just ones i've played with.

    i start with teaching the basic postures from the dance styles and also using poi instinctively and reactively.

    oh yeah nobody has said it yet...

    MOVES ARE AN ILLUSION

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    #672053 - 27/12/05 02:17 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: mcp]
    Stone Offline
    Stream Entrant

    Registered: 13/06/01
    Loc: Melbourne

    Yes. There is also a thread called dance for idiots in Social, and another by stout in Help, and another by Jo in poi or social. All good.

    First think to learn is how to walk real proper. Then learn to march; flex the knee a bit lift the foot as you move forward with the thigh.

    Cheers more later in 2006
    _________________________
    If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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    #672054 - 27/12/05 02:21 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: arashi]
    jeffhigh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 15/10/05
    Loc: Caves Beach, NSW
    Anything you do, any style will open you up to possibilities, and new freedoms, even If you don't use the actual moves.
    At some stage I plan on getting some lessons in west african dance, but I do not have a teacher available at the moment.

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    #672055 - 27/12/05 02:24 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: arashi]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    *MOVES ARE AN ILLUSION *

    "Before I began studying the moves
    a spin was just a spin, a movement was just a movement;
    then I began studying the moves
    and I realized that a spin was not just a spin, a movement was not just a movement;
    after I finished studying the moves
    a spin was just a spin, a movement was just a movement"

    (just paraphrased, sorry, could not resist, I have been reading/listening too much Alan Watts recently)
    (seriously: I think the moves HAVE to disappear, in the same way I don't think about English grammar when writing, even if I learnt it as an adult; but you NEED the moves, in a way or another; it's a ladder you use to get there, and then you can throw away. You cannot throw it away before you climbed it. I think. I have been playing with these ideas quite much lately)


    *various styles of indian,
    ok
    *belly,
    ok
    *flamenco,
    ok
    *samba,
    ok
    *a little capoeira,
    yes
    * kung fu, tai chi,
    yeah, yeah, been there done that
    *kabuki, polynesian, thai, balinesian,
    dunno (thai did not seem very much like it, though)
    But...
    *tap,
    I just CANNOT imagine it! Tap dancing while unselfconsciously spinning?

    And... bolllywood style and poi seems like a GREAT idea!
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672056 - 27/12/05 02:26 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    Aliosha Offline
    member

    Registered: 31/07/03
    Loc: Berlin, somewhere
    *At some stage I plan on getting some lessons in west african dance, but I do not have a teacher available at the moment.*

    I DO!
    (Really, being able to pay in massages opens up an ENORMOUS amount of free teachings!)
    _________________________
    --- "Angels fly because they don't take themselves too seriously" G.C. Chesterson

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    #672057 - 27/12/05 02:36 PM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Aliosha]
    Happy Birthday arashi Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 21/03/02
    Loc: austin,tx
    "And... bolllywood style and poi seems like a GREAT idea! "

    my personal favorite for a while now...

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    #672058 - 28/12/05 01:33 AM Re: dance lessons for spinners [Re: Stone]
    Stout Offline
    Pooh-Bah

    Registered: 12/05/04
    Loc: Canada
    Ever since I first picked up a pair of poi I've been after the answer to this question and after talking to quite a few dancers, I've come to the conclusion that there is no real definitive answer. Most people seem to promote the style of dance they're into, even if it's not really applicable to poi ( like tango ) however I don't see this as a bad thing.

    Speaking as a fellow "non dancer" I do believe that there is a secret to movement and eventually I hope to tap into it, but one thing's for sure at this point in time, I need my toys in order to feel comfortable with this whole dance thing. I did manage a little freehand glowsticking last month

    It might help to examine your own motivations for posing this question, I did and found I had a few.

    The first was to get a grip on the whole "being a performer" thing, which was something I'd had zero experience with so I just swallowed my nervousness and joined a professional group with lots of work. We're still working, New Years eve, I'll be the guy painted gold, wearing white, and spinning in some sort of Shakespearean procession. Did this make me a better dancer? I don't think so but it definitely affected my spinning style and taught me to feel more confident with cheezy TA DA......type moves. I learned to embrace my inner poser.

    Another motivation I found I had was balance. Sometimes I found I got so lost in the spinning moment I was tripping over my own feet, and I still do sometimes. I think the secret to sorting this out lies in tai chi, but I have yet to study it. For performance based spinning I'm learning to move between a series of stable stances. I'm not moving as quickly as I'd like, but at least I haven't embarassed myself yet.

    I was also concerned about positioning my upper body, I sort of had this picture in my head that I looked like a hunchback when I was spinning ( the antithesis of Yuta ) and I found that after bouncing this idea off several dancres, that maybe I was being a little to self critical. Most dancers agreed that studying any form of dance would help with this, this being the whole "up" thing. Still working on it.........but "giant" moves come in handy here.

    Good luck with your quest, and if you find THE answer, please, let me know

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